Australian Moth Class Association

After the worlds I think I see some areas where some rule amendments might be warrented.

As a class measurer I would like to raise two points for discussion amoungst IMCA members with a propoasl to change class rules if there is enough support:

1. I think the now oversized pre 2005 sails should not be allowed to be used on any new boats (after what ever date we adopt such a rule).
There are a few ML9s being used unfaily by a small number of sailors and KA seem to be able to find a few more for their team each year.

2. I think it is now time to reconsider the rejected proposal from a few years back, which would restrict us to one boat, one rig, one sail, one set of everything for any regatta. (breakages excepted).
With professional teams and factory support it will be imposible for normal amateur sailors to compete if the top sailors start to turn up with a quiver of foils to match their quiver of masts and sails

Phil Stevo.

Re point 1.

As I understand it, the original intention of the "grandfather clause" was to allow sailors with old sails that previously were legal use them until they wore out. The practice of keeping old sails and using them only on light days at championship events was never the intent of the rule. Whilst within the rules, IMHO this rule creates an unleveled playing field for people who don't have these sails. My vote is to put an end date on the clause, after which all sails must measure in as legal.

Re point 2.

I think that we should continue to encourage as much as possible the idea that you essentially have a single configuration that must work from the wind range of 0-25 knots. This also balances out the weight difference of skippers as you will be unable to change the design wind of a boat with a different sail. Lighter skippers will be overpowered on heavy days, and heavier skippers will be underpowered in the light stuff. This should widen the competitive weight range of skippers.

Restricting to a single sail, mast and set of foils for a regatta would achieve this. It also makes a lot of sense from a cost containment exercise. Even the richest sport in the world, Formula 1 now has restrictions on how many engines teams can use. It just makes good sense to me.

I started to reply last night but decided to sleep on it because these are, IMO, important issues. If we get it wrong, it is always to "little" guy who gets hurt as the pros will always do whatever it takes. I am also very much against adding rules if there is another way out or if there isn't a problem. I have redraughted 3 sets of class rules so as to tidy up the little add in etc.

1. Grandfathered sails - My first reaction was that they should be banned, but while this would level the playing field at the front of the fleet, it would hurt the back of the fleet. Imagine a scow or fat skiff that updated it's sail with a grandfathered one. A ban would force these boats either out of class or get the owner to spend money on a newer sail. It could be that it would force them to spend the value of their boat, or more, just to stay in class.

If you make exceptions, such as you can only use a grandfathered sail on a boat of a certain age, you open up for abuse as well. Some years ago, a class in the UK banned daggerboards (as opposed to centreboards) and grandfathered the 7 boats that had them. Many years later, somebody got a ruling on what constituted a "boat and sail number" and rebuilt one of the old boats around the daggerboard case, kingpost and central keel stringer! It caused a big stir.

I believe the answer is to keep the grandfather rule, but, as other classes do, not allow grandfathered gear to be used at championships. It is interesting to note that this has only been an issue at the worlds. The question is whether the ban should only apply at worlds or whether to do it at national and state level. IMO, that would hurt the class as it might exclude some scows and fat skiffs (even a few early thin ones!)

So, I propose a ban on grandfathered equipment at World championships with the option to ban at other events. The question is, who to achieve it. It took me a while, but I believe it can be done without rule changes. A "Notice of Race" can change a class rule and I believe that is how some classes handle this.

2. Only one piece of equipment - My first concern is to identify how much of a problem this really is. I believe it only applies to sails, because I haven't heard of people changing masts, foils and hulls at events. Lets not draft rules that solve a problem that doesn't exist.

First off, 2 (or more) sails being used at a championship isn't a new thing in Moths. In fact, when I first started sailing the class in 1974, everybody used at least 2 sails, one for light/medium and the other for "fresh to frightening". The heavy weather sail had reefing points or was cut down and usually had a smaller roach. In fact, until Dave Issatt perfected the small needlespar and fexible sail rig in the late 70's, it wasn't possible (for mortals) to sail in over 18-20 knots without a different sail.

I have also been through this with other classes and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't really save money. Most of the fleet don't expect to do well in heavy weather so their heavy weather sail tends to be older, so it isn't a cost issue. It is a sail they don't mind trashing. Often the heavy weather sail is last years sail - it's a sunk cost. What you don't want is to bee on a tight budget (as are most) and at nationals, and having to choose between missing races because the wind is high and you might trash you good sail and being competitive in lighter weather for the rest of the season. This does and will happen.

So restricting sails can hurt the middle to back of the fleet but does it help the front? Not in my oppinion. The top guys will still spend lots, maybe more, developing a rig that works well in all conditions and it is harder to develop an all round rig than a 2 sail one. They still do all the development work but only measure in one of the sails for the week. The other danger is that if a championship is at a venue with nearly "guaranteed" weather, there is more likelihood of the top guys developing sails only for that venue. For instance, if the venue was Garda I would think it was quite low risk to pick a heavy weather sail. This is still a 2 or more sail campaign. This forces people to get more kit as I am sure that many would have bought a "Garda" sail in those circumstances.

Finally, if there is a limit, what happens in club and inter-club events. Is a club race an "event" or is it part of a series. Should you use the same sail all series? This gets really complicated!

So, overall, I am against setting a limit on the number of sails.

About how many of the original oversize and grandfathered sails were originally measured? Surely it wasn't that many, it was only over about a season wasn't it, and the resource would be thinning out.

Both 1 and 2 sound like good ideas Phil -

1 - It has been 2 years now since the sail measurement rule change, given that most of the old rule sails were made of monofilm/X-ply, they should all be coming pretty close to the end of their racing lives now if they were used as per the original intentions of the grandfather clause (ie. use the sail until it wore out, get a new one measured under the new rule... not get a new one, horde the old one and keep it in cotton wool and then pull it out when it best suits you). If people wish to continue using them, then people can use them for training/club racing or get them recut and remeasured to meet the new rule.

2 - Anything that keeps costs down can only be a good thing. The only real opposition I forsee this proposal getting is from those people with substancial factory backing, which is only a relatively small proportion of the moth community. Even then that small part of the moth community might see the benefit in trying to keep the costs down in order to encourage more people into the class, especially from places that haven't had fleets before or haven't had much numerical strength for a while.

--Edit--

Simon raises a very good point though - perhaps the rule should limit people to getting a maximum of 2 mains (provided that they both meet the rules in effect at the time), 1 mast, 1 boom, 1 hull and 1 set of foils measured per regatta at national level and above, similar to how the NS14s run things (they allow 2 jibs, 1 main, and 1 of everything else excepting breakages which are dealt with by the race committee, so people can run a lighter, expensive mylar or kevlar jib in light conditions and a dacron basher in a blow and they tend to ignore people switching gear at regattas below state level). That way those who wish to run their old sail or a storm sail in fresh conditions can do so without risking contravening the rules and also reducing the risk of trashing their expensive new gear, that would allow people to keep costs down by not needing to buy new equipment as often. Perhaps the NOR at all worlds and nationals (state titles and below should be kept out as that is the level that we tend to get some older boats and beginners appear out of the woodwork and we don't want to discourage new people in older boats from competing and as most state titles don't worry about a measurement day as opposed to nationals and above which do, it's of lesser concern) should state that all equipment used at a titles should measure to all rules currently in force, ie. everyone competing in a nationals or worlds post-2005 should have equipment that meets the post-2005 rules.

jon

Rohan changed from a MS 11 to his MSL 9 at lunchtime between races at the Sunshine nationals in 05-06 after Scott beat him in a light morning race, so it is an issue at National and State level as well.

The reason I like the one main only idea is that it essentialy locks in the design wind of the boat, so that over a certain wind strength it will be overpowered. This wind range will vary depending on the weight of the skipper. If you can't change to a smaller or flatter rig, it means that the heavy guys will have more of a chance in the stronger wind. This will widen the effective weight range of skippers, so that you don't have to be 65-70kg to be competitive. Note: I have a vested interest here as I am 85KG+

Sailing at club level & interclub level, you would be able to have as many sails & foils as you like. Also, I don't think anyone would have a problem if someone used a slightly oversize sail at club level, and the cost to get an old main trimmed to measure in would be minimal.

Some responses and more info:

1. New MSL9s seem to turn up. I saw AMAC and Robbo putting numbers on new sails half way through the 2006 Sunshine nationals. I suspect more appeared at Garda? I do not know where or when or by whom these sails were measures. I suspect that a lot of sails in KA stock were measured in Melbourne on 30/12/2004. I have never seen the certificates.

2. My idea is to only ban pre 2005 sails on new boats post 2008?. I think our lack of weight rule would solve the problem of Simons rebuild scenario.

3. Team bladerider certainly changed a lot of foils right up to the start of the worlds, only those sailing in the team know if they changed through the regatta, but the perception of many others there and elsewhere must be that with so many spare parts lying around, there was plenty of oportunity to select the best one for the day even ifthat was not the case last month. It is easy to see that if such a team/ factory approach is used in future then different design foils could be selected just like different design sail depending on the weather. I just think we should stop this happening before it becomes a problem and turns teh part timers against the class.

4. I would have thought that the 1 equipment rule would be a plus for new Bladerider customers. At least they know they do not need to back up with extra sails and foils to compete in moth regattas.

5. As a big boy I agree with Bruce, why should the little guys be allowed to change to flatter sails if it is windy when the big guys can not change to bigger ones if it is light?

Phil

The foil thing is really a non issue. I am unaware of anybody changing foil during a regatta, other than for damage reasons. As for Bladeriders changing foils, that was due to construction issues. As I have said above, I believe that rules should ony be written when there is an issue, not when there might be an issue. If people start changing foils, masts and hulls, then I would fully support a rule.

As for the sails, this is not about being able to compete over a wider wind range, this is about keeping down cost. I will try to explain a bit better.

I believe that I am not untypical of Moth sailors. I know, that at state and national level, I am unlikely to be competitive over, lets say, 18 knots. I doubt I will ever be able to put the time in to get to that level. However, in 0-15 knots, I believe that I will be able compete with most. This fits the same pattern as when I sailed 49ers. Up to 12 knots, I could win races at international level. Over 15knots and I was dead agianst the "pros".

That being so, if I had a sail to use as a heavy weather sail, I would use it so as to preserve the sail I would hope will allow me to compete in lighter conditions. Imagine that I am allowed only 1 sail per regatta. If I go to the nationals in January and it blows 20+ knots all week, with the number of capsizes etc, my sail will be past its best and by the time the states come around at the end of the season, I would buy a new sail.

Now, if I was allowed 2 sails, I would use my heavy weather sail at the nationals and not have to replace my competitive sail. My heavy weather sail would last me a long time, as it doesn't need to be the best, competitive sail as I admit I am not good enough to benefit. Most people who have sailed a Moth for a while has an older sail that they can put up in a blow, thus saving their "good" sail.

I do have some sympathy for the issue with weight and that having a full and flat sail helps the lightweight. However, your original comments were to do with cost and my comments are as well. I am not asking for 2 sails so as to gain an advantage. I want it so as to save money.

I would support #1. The MSL9 could just be measured under the current rules. Simon was wanting to do that with his anyway.

As for #2. I've voted against that in the past and would probably do the same.

In reality the result of Rohan, myself, Simon, Amac, John and Robo changing sails is largely psychological. Rohan won the windiest races of the event using his big MSL9. When I used the 12 instead of the 10 in a blow, my positions didn't really change.

I don't believe anyone in team BR changed anything (bar sails) during the event by choice.

In retrospect, having an arms race at the front of the fleet is probably beneficial for those in the middle. There's a lot more good equipment on the market for good prices.

There is a more heated discussion on this subject going on in the UK Moth Yahoo Forum. Maybe they are more into summer interests in July than we are?

There is substantial support for an end to grandfathering of pre 05 sails, meaning all old sails would need re measurement and cutting down. I doubt they have considered the implications well. That is why I wanted to only ban pre 05 sails on post 07 boats.

The Poms do not want any gear restrictions. That is a dominant opinion. No one wants extra rules.

To stir the possum I have just posted a proposal to delete the sail area rule all together. One for the big boys.

After reading the UK yahoo group stuff, I've changed my mind somewhat... the following is what I posted on the UK forum this morning:

Has it struck anyone else that all these shenanigans are occurring due to the rule change in the first place, and one way to make it 'go away' is to simply revert back to the old rule that worked pretty damn well for 30-odd years? Sure, there are loopholes in the old rule that lead to the sailmakers making sails up to 8.5m^2 that would still measure as 8.0, but there was nothing stopping anyone else from doing the same thing so the nett difference would be within a gnat's of zero if it were kept as is for a while longer as eventually everyone would have a main that took advantage of the unmeasured areas. If you look back through moth history, it's funny to see that in the 60's and 70's there were boats with bendy masts and pocket luffs... and they all measured to the imperial equivalent to 8.0m^2 (86 sqft. roughly) - then someone decided it'd be a good idea to ban it... it then took nearly 20 years for someone to use it again and get the rule changed back. Sometime's it pays to leave things as they were and just put up with the inherent problems, after all there is no such thing as a perfect rule.



As a result of the change we now have people hoarding oversize mains, we have people discontented with those who are doing the hoarding because they can't compete on a level playing field if they have to go into battle with one arm behind their back and a smaller sail, we have sailmakers having migraines due to the need to measure all the area by triangulation and arcing to find the component areas (which unless you have a degree in pure mathematics or engineering is quite hard to work out the maths behind it) now instead of using the old (simpler) rule which (if i understood it correctly) measured the bulk of the sail in one hit by calling it one big triangle and then applied simpson's rules to get the rest of it (which isn't a hard formula to work with), we even have sails varying in size by as much as .15m depending on who measured it and how it was measured. All this was done in order to do what... fit in the rest of the crowd who measured using the ISAF method? Moths aren't about fitting in... they're about pushing the boundaries, sailing on the razor's edge!!



Instead of culling the rule completely Phil... why not just admit that the rule change has been a failed experiment and go back to what we know works? Sure, it has it's pitfalls too... but at least with the old rule every main ever made and measured for a moth will fit the old rule.



As for the one equipment rule... while it is a good idea it has more pitfalls than advantages now that I've had some time to sit down and think about it. Yet again - we're a development class, and one advantage we can boast over most other classes is that we do have the ability to use different gear when we want or need to, but at the same time most of us have the sensibility to keep their gear library to a minimum in order to keep the starboard aft pocket as full as possible for other things. Provided somewhere out there in the mix is the ability to (at least in theory) have a level playing field for all who want to sail moths, then there really isn't a problem - which relates directly back to the sail size issue.



I happen to have a pre-2005 MSL9-alike too... but I won't use it on my new boat for anything other than a practice sail unless the rule gets reverted back to the pre-2005 rule (unlikely), simply because I'd rather sail with the same handicaps as the majority of the fleet, that way when I win or lose I can only really blame myself for pulling a slow tack, swimming on a gybe, dropping my sheet, not preparing the boat as well as possible etc. etc. instead of blaming my gear.

What was the original sail area rule change intended to do?

Now where was that original thread...?

it was to try and cut down on sails with excess 'unmeasured area' by changing from the original (1960's vintage) measurement method to the ISAF-approved triangulation (true area) method with a grandfather rule for those big sails already measured.

The 2005 rule change was because sail makers and owners of the sails not made by KA or maybe some others including Stuart Brown before that, objected to the extra area they were gaining by exagerating the roach shape.

From my point as a measurer this climaxed when KA made a model with straight lines from head to top batten and from top batten to foot. Although other makers had made sails like this which were OKed by others, the rule as then applicable stated that the 3 offset simpsons rule (as used universally by all moth measurers) should not be used for quadrilateral sails. The dilemma was to use the 3 offset method against this instrution, or reject the sail all together.

I sought direction from IMCA committee and after discussion the change was drafted, voted on and adopted.

Just because some old sails still exist does not mean the new rule has failed. Just because it has been used baddly, and against its intention by not streatching out wrinkles, does not mean it has failed.

The rule is simple enough, measure all the sail. We did about 8 sails hour at Cootharabah in Jan 07, it is not slow. It is hard to measure a sail oversize. It is easy to measure one undersize if it is not streatched out.

So if measurers get different answers probably the big answer is correct.

Now are there any IMCA aust members with an opinion?

i vote 'yes' to 8.00m for all sails (regardless of age).

i vote 'no' to a one equipment rule.

BTW - i have a 2004 MSL9 used about 10 times and will use it next year in the worlds unless someone wants to give me AU$20,000 (as that is what it is seriously going to cost for me to part with it now), they can have it!